Re: Debate [RE: Anniversary motto]

CobraBoy (
Thu, 7 May 1998 09:43:12 -0800

At 8:16 AM -0800 5/7/98, Jay Thomas came up with the following:

> Joe Barrera wrote:
> > Is one saved by faith and deeds, or by faith alone?
> Sola Fide. Faith alone. My $.02. However, you need to define "saved".
> And, by "faith", do you mean Christian faith? Faith in whom or what?
> Which religion are we discussing?

Well my take on this is like this. We're all walking in this parade. We
only know who we are, where we are at that point and who is around us. If
we have faith we relax and enjoy the parade we're in. Even when the stupid
horses shit in the road and we have to walk through it, we do it knowing
that isnt' forever and whomever is planning the parade is going to take
care of us.

Maybe a bit of a simplistic explanation but you get the idea.

> According to the Bible, the text that teaches us the tenets of our
> (Christians) faith, in the book of Romans: "3:23 for all have sinned
> and fall short of the glory of God. 3:24 But they are justified freely
> by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus".
> Justified is translated as "Or =93declared righteous.=94 Grk =93being
> justified,=94 as a continuation of the preceding clause. Because of the
> length and complexity of the Greek sentence, a new sentence was
> started here in the translation." There is no mention of a need for
> good deeds for salvation.

Did Nordquist write that? Is Nordquist a prophet?

> 1)Peter, to whom Christ referred as the "rock upon which I shall build
> my church", said "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there
> is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be
> saved" (Acts 4:12) referring to the name of Christ.
> 2)In the book of Acts 16:31, Paul says to a prison guard: "Believe on
> the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house".

Again taking this -2000 years we have what I believe are the phrase,
believe in what LJC is *saying*.

> 3)In Ephesians, Paul again says: "2:8 For by grace you are saved
> through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
> 2:9 it is not of works, so that no one can boast.

Yeah, God is the parade organizer.

> 4)Paul wrote "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptance,
> that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am
> chief"(1 Timothy 1:15)

Paul's letters to Timothy were in many ways more telling than any other in
the bible. IMHO you take LJC sermon on the mount (Matthew) and Timothy I,
II and throw away the rest of the bible and you got a pretty good little
guide book.

> The only time Christ specifically tells anyone that they must "do"
> something to gain salvation, it is to follow the ten commandments. In
> the book of Mark, Chapter 12, when a rich young man asks Christ what
> to do to gain eternal salvation, Christ replies: "Thou shalt love the
> Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all
> thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
> And the second is this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There
> is no other commandment greater than these"(Mark 12:30,31). However,
> I don't look at these as deeds, so much as a state of mind.

Well this can be summed up pretty neatly as karma can't it? Or don't piss
the guy marching in the parade next to you off.

> To quote Lehman Strauss, Litt.D., F.R.G.S
> (
> In answer to the disciples=92 question, =93Who then can be saved?=94 Jesus
> stated the doctrine of salvation in a nutshell. Salvation is
> impossible with men but possible with God. What good works, law
> observance, wealth and rank cannot effect God in grace has made
> possible. If salvation depended upon one=92s religion and his own
> efforts, it would be impossible for anyone to be saved, but =93salvation
> is of the LORD" (Jonah 2:9). God Himself does all the saving from
> start to finish. =93According to His mercy He saved us" (Titus 3:5).
> Salvation is the sovereign work of God through which He rescues and
> delivers fully the believing sinner from the guilt and penalty of sin.
> And He has only one way of saving men. All hope of man being saved
> through his own efforts came to an end at Calvary when Divine love
> completed the work of redemption through the death of Jesus Christ.

Intersting start to finish. I have a big problem with the "saved" part
though. I don't believe in original sin. We have discussed all this before
but I don't believe in the whole good/evil thing. The devil, master of evil
in a eternal war for our souls. Evil is man's invention based entirely on
the 7 deadly sins, period.

oh yeah, and the Microsoft operating systems. :-)

Tim 3:16


Go sell crazy somewhere else, we're full up here. ...Nicholson

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