Re: Fw: http://www.egroups.com/message/decentralization/326

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From: Dave Winer (dave@userland.com)
Date: Wed Sep 13 2000 - 09:50:45 PDT


Look Dan, I don't want to nail you or anyone else. On the decentralization
list I was responding to a developer, who hearing that Intel was trying to
get in the middle of P2P urged us all, emphatically, to avoid them. I wanted
to let him know that I understood what he was saying, and that it was
hopeless, the big companies pretty much get to do what they want.

I want to go forward peacefully. You just have to trust me on that. I want
the grab to be retracted. That's all I want. Then no one will have to argue
about whether or not O'Reilly is involved at a corporate level, or if any
stealing took place. I've already posted so many disclaimers on this, I've
run surveys of the users, I have written a lengthy essay on this, no one has
responded as far as I know. I am angry and hurt by this whole series of
events.

You can go back to CDF and OSD if you want, but I don't want to, it's really
unfortunate that the response has been the way it has. It never should have
happened in the first place. The new spec is radically different from the
old one. It's always kind to let the other spec and people who have invested
have a chance to go forward or if it was meant to rest in peace, let it do
that too.

That's the issue I have raised, and I would appreciate if that were dealt
with before we start wandering into other areas.

Dave

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Brickley" <Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk>
To: "Dave Winer" <dave@userland.com>
Cc: "FoRK" <FoRK@xent.com>; "Tim O'Reilly" <tim@oreilly.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: http://www.egroups.com/message/decentralization/326

>
> Ok, so you think we stole it.
>
> Next step is to work out what exactly we stole. Was it the brandnamed
> bandwagon or any substantive technical contribution? For this, I think a
> comparison with similar specs such as CDF is going to prove critical. If
> we're going to be nailed for stealing this, FoRKsters are going to have
> to help us figure out what exactly was stolen...
>
> To help with this I've put examples of RSS 0.91, CDF and scriptingNews
> formats in
http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/2000/08/rss/forked/forked.txt
>
> FWIW I'm all in favour of swearing, and on understanding disputes
> through context and connections...
>
> --danbri
>
> On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Dave Winer wrote:
>
> > Good! I welcome help. BTW, as with all email list posts, a sense of
context
> > will help you understand what I was saying. I know it's true that I've
said
> > "Fuck this" many times. I did co-author the spec. Was it stolen? Well,
> > that's my opinion, that's certainly how it appears from my pov. As they
say,
> > your mileage may vary.
> >
> > And which is "worse" -- doing the stealing, or saying it was stolen? Tim
is
> > my personal thought policeman. He's always reading the worst into my
posts,
> > never getting the context right, and attacking with incomplete
information.
> > I wish some independent person, at O'Reilly or elsewhere would look into
his
> > assertions without prejudice. It would be a relief to me not to be the
only
> > one listening to his "arguments".
> >
> > Re movement in RSS, sometimes specs freeze. In this case the people who
> > authored "RSS 1.0" certainly played their part in freezing RSS. No blame
is
> > being laid there, by me, to the others; hopefully the same can be said
for
> > Tim and Company. I tried to get it moving in June, in response to a
request
> > from Dale Dougherty of all people. Somewhere along the line they shifted
> > gears and went to work in private on the Namespaces+RDF proposal.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dan Brickley" <Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk>
> > To: "Dave Winer" <dave@userland.com>
> > Cc: "FoRK" <FoRK@xent.com>; "Tim O'Reilly" <tim@oreilly.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 9:03 AM
> > Subject: Re: Fw: http://www.egroups.com/message/decentralization/326
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Dave,
> > >
> > > In http://www.egroups.com/message/decentralization/326
> > >
> > > you say:
> > > [[
> > > Recently I have had a standard that I co-authored stolen by a big
name,
> > > totally brazen, and I've said Fuck This many times in the
> > > last few weeks, and it hasn't done any good.
> > > ]]
> > >
> > > To be clear, are you claiming that OReilly (plus various of their
naive
> > > pawns such as myself) have stolen RSS, and that you're a co-author of
the
> > > intellectual work that was stolen?
> > >
> > > If that's the case, please circulate to FoRK a list of technical
> > > innovations in "your" RSS v0.91 that are anything more than trivial
> > > elaborations on the 9th March 1997 Channel Definition Format
> > > (CDF) specification, as submitted by Microsoft to the W3C,
> > > http://www.w3.org/Submission/1997/2/Overview.html
> > > http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-CDFsubmit.html
> > >
> > > Accusations of theft are a big deal. We should help you get to the
> > > bottom of this...
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 13 Sep 2000, Dave Winer wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is the kind of threatening email I get from Tim O'Reilly. One
of
> > dozens
> > > > I've received over the years. I've warned Tim over and over, that if
he
> > > > wants to make threats, make them in public for all to see.
> > > >
> > > > They are serious integrity issues at O'Reilly. I've been emailing
> > privately
> > > > with Dave Sims and Andy Oram at O'Reilly about them. They are
involved
> > in a
> > > > corporate way on RSS. They've run ads, had corporate officers doing
> > > > "journalism" where only their side was presented. They worked in
private
> > on
> > > > a public spec, and then presented it as a fait accompli, on their
> > corporate
> > > > website. The line betw journalism and corporate affairs at O'Reilly
is
> > > > pretty murky. That Tim claims that O'Reilly is not involved in RSS
at a
> > > > corporate level is a ludicrous thing.
> > > >
> > > > I have no idea what's going on over there, but Tim is one of the
most
> > > > personally offensive people I've ever met in the software industry,
in
> > over
> > > > 25 years. I'm tired of receiving these private threats. Tim, the
ball's
> > in
> > > > your court, do your best to smear me. And at the same time let's
take a
> > deep
> > > > hard look at exactly what O'Reilly is versus what you say it is.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Tim O'Reilly" <tim@oreilly.com>
> > > > To: <dave@userland.com>
> > > > Cc: "tim" <tim@oreilly.com>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 7:43 AM
> > > > Subject: http://www.egroups.com/message/decentralization/326
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Dave,
> > > > >
> > > > > I've told you again and again that your conflict over RSS is not
an
> > > > > O'Reilly thing, as have the participants, yet you keep making the
> > > > > accusation. When we exclude you from things in future, just make
a
> > note
> > > > > of this as the reason why. And be sure that I will do the same.
I'm
> > > > > assembling a list of all the false claims you've made against us,
and
> > at
> > > > > some point, if you keep this up, it will be published as an
expose.
> > > > >
> > > > > When people see both sides, you will lose even more credibility
than
> > you
> > > > > have already. You're lucky that I haven't been waging the kind of
PR
> > > > > campaign against you that you've been waging against us.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, you might say that O'Reilly wasn't mentioned by name here.
But
> > > > > it's clear enough who you mean, and as a result, someone outside
the
> > > > > conflict forwarded the message to me.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please stop. Or I'll go public on what you're doing.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Tim O'Reilly @ O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.
> > > > > 101 Morris Street, Sebastopol, CA 95472
> > > > > +1 707-829-0515, FAX +1 707-829-0104
> > > > > tim@oreilly.com, http://www.oreilly.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>


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