From: Dan Brickley (Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk)
Date: Mon Aug 21 2000 - 05:06:29 PDT
On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, Dave Winer wrote:
> Sorry, I must be missing a connection.
>
> We worked on something like this at Living Videotext in the mid-80s, it was
> called Boxes and Arrows. We started with the "tool problem" the one the RDF
> advocates seem to have left for last. The data representation was relatively
> easy, it's just an adjacency table on a storage pool.
neat!
> The problem with the tool was the user interface (doh). While the results it
> produced were gorgeous, the UI was far too complicated for people who were
> accustomed to outliners. I really wanted this software, because I am one of
> those people who thinks in boxes and circles and arrows. When I want to
> visualize a difficult problem, I get out a pad and pen and start drawing.
same here. I think the lesson for RDF is that we're best of managing
the data in whatever format makes sense for users, and projecting out
into a common DLG model. HTML (and subsets) are a good basis for that.
> Now one wonders why you need RDF at all since the HTML web already does
> this.
Exactly! :-)
RDF's just the model. It differs from the old HTML web only in the
Pedantic Web detail of insisting on URIs for everything. So instead of
"LINK REL='next'" we need conventions for 'next' mapping to a URI like
http://hlink.example.com/linktypes/sitemap.
I parse RDF from LINK RELs in 5 year old HTML pages, no problem (except,
as you not, the basic types in HTML LINK aren't great. next/prev/up
etc). eg http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/2000/08/bized-meta/
Early-on some people (including myself) thought that a website was a
> hierarchy and found quickly that they are not hierarchies, they are directed
> graphs.
yeah, goodbye to gopher and all that...
That's why next-prev links never caught on in the Web. Ask
> Netobjects, that was Fusion's second big selling point (after being the
> Quark of the Web).
Yep, next/prev fine for output of latex2html or whatever, not sites.
(Maybe coming again with all this mobile phone malarky... dunno)
>
> Anyway, if Guha et al are really serious about this (I talked with him on
> the phone last week and it wasn't clear that he is serious) I would
> recommend starting with the tool, solve the UI problem, and then declare
> victory. If you can create a scribble-space on a desktop computer using a
> mouse and keyboard, you've got something with real value.
I can't comment on Guha' frivolity. this stuff *is* supposed to be fun
though...
You're right about tools, though I suspect the generalised DLG editor
for a non-tech user isn't the best target. Smaller more constrained
editors can be more usable, and still DLG friendly.
Dan
>
> OTOH, I hesitate to give Guha too much encouragement because he's a patent
> abuser. Makes me wonder if O'Reilly checked him out before teaming up with
> him, afaik O'Reilly is an outspoken critic of software patents.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Brickley" <Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk>
> To: "Dave Winer" <dave@userland.com>
> Cc: "Dan Brickley" <Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk>; "foRK"
> <fork@xent.ics.uci.edu>; "guha" <guha@guha.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 4:18 AM
> Subject: Re: What is RDF?
>
>
> >
> >
> > It's just the Web information model. Typed links. We use URIs for those
> > types, and for the types of the things they interconnect. Devil's in the
> > detail (quoting mechanism, reification, datatyping etc), but the basic
> > idea ain't new.
> >
> > Does this sound familiar?
> >
> > "...In providing a system for manipulating this sort of information,the
> hope
> > would be to allow a pool of
> > information to develop which could grow and evolve with the
> > organisation and the projects it
> > describes. For this to be possible, the method of storage must
> > not place its own restraints on the
> > information. This is why a "web" of notes with links (like
> > references) between them is far more useful
> > than a fixed hierarchical system. When describing a complex
> > system, many people resort to
> > diagrams with circles and arrows. Circles and arrows leave one
> > free to describe the
> > interrelationships between things in a way that tables, for
> > example, do not. The system we need is
> > like a diagram of circles and arrows, where circles and arrows
> > can stand for anything. "
> >
> > quoted in http://www.w3.org/1999/11/11-WWWProposal/thenandnow
> >
> >
> > --danbri
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, Dave Winer wrote:
> >
> > > If it's not Guha's retirement plan, what is it?
> > >
> > > BTW, Guha boasts of eight issued patents on his website.
> > >
> > > http://web1.guha.com/patents.html
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Dan Brickley" <Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk>
> > > To: "Dave Winer" <dave@userland.com>
> > > Cc: "foRK" <fork@xent.ics.uci.edu>; <guha@guha.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 1:58 AM
> > > Subject: Re: What is RDF?
> > >
> > >
> > > > (+cc: guha)
> > > >
> > > > I voted for Guha's retirement plan too.
> > > >
> > > > You missed out the right answer of course...
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 20 Aug 2000, Dave Winer wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Tomorrow I want to run a survey on Scripting News asking what RDF
> is.
> > > > >
> > > > > dave@userland.com/whatIsRdf">http://surveys.userland.com/surveys/run/dave@userland.com/whatIsRdf
> > > > >
> > > > > You all presumably know that I don't like RDF. I'm most likely to
> vote
> > > for
> > > > > the "Guha Retirement Plan" choice. But I know other people like RDF.
> I
> > > just
> > > > > never understand their reasons why.
> > > > >
> > > > > I hope to start a discussion that instead of rambling all over the
> map
> > > into
> > > > > someday panaceas that depend on a lot of magic, and focus on what
> RDF
> > > can do
> > > > > for us today, and what the costs assosicated with that are, so
> > > intelligent
> > > > > busy people can make a decision.
> > > > >
> > > > > And so if it turns out that RDF is too complicated by two orders of
> > > > > magnitude (another choice), we can figure out how to deliver the
> > > benefits it
> > > > > promises without compromising simplicity and without having to wait
> for
> > > > > magic to happen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for your help, I hope to learn a lot through this process.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dave
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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