From: Eric D. Sherman (EricSherman@Alum.MIT.edu)
Date: Thu Jun 08 2000 - 14:27:33 PDT
Joachim Feise wrote:
> Of course, Mr. Matloff Cc'ed his original answer to everyone on his
> list of anti-immigration advocates.
> Who are the "thousands of high tech workers" who share the same anecdote?
> Again and again I see you and your collegues arguing with some numbers
that
> nobody seems to know except you. Apparently, these numbers circulate in
> anti-immigration circles, and at some point become "facts".
Norm has given you the poll reference.
> And then you throw in another anecdote about recruiting at UCD, which
> again does not show anything.
> Just a consideration: maybe recruiting at UCD is down because the people
> already have jobs.
> It is known that all US universities have problems getting graduate
students
> because of the worker shortage. People are leaving undergraduate curricula
> even before graduation.
Perhaps the price to quality ratio at U.S. universities is too high ?
Businesses which can't keep customers should re-examine their product
offering.
> And why is the fact that a CEO said that they screen people something
> newsworthy? This happens all the time, in all industries. People apply for
> jobs they don't have the qualifications for, and they are screened out
> during the process. This has happened for centuries. Maybe you need
> an education in business management.
As I've said, I've been in business management for over 25 years, and I can
categorically state that American industry uses very odd, over-specific
criteria to screen candidates --- exactly as Norm has described. Were
American industry to recruit chauffeurs the way it recruits programmers, it
would advertize:
"Driver wanted. Must have 3 to 8 years' experience driving and repairing
blue 1998 Chevy Caprice's. Hours 9 am to 9 pm Monday through Sunday. Salary:
$ 10,000." Then, when Mario Andretti (sp. ?) applies, reject his
application because he only has experience driving race cars at 120 mph, and
has no specific experience with blue Chevy Caprice's.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Tax [mailto:rtax@bellatlantic.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 5:12 PM
To: jfeise@ics.uci.edu
Cc: Mark Mendlovitz; EricSherman@alum.mit.edu; Norm Matloff;
jdensler@ziplink.net; c0030180@airmail.net; rogermadden@cs.com;
miano@colosseumbuilders.com; netmouser@earthlink.net;
110077.3677@compuserve.com; terryo@flash.net; robertsb@mindspring.com;
infosurf@cybernex.net; KFran95011@aol.com; RobSanz@worldnet.att.net;
DamonScott@cs.ucdavis.edu; Adam L. Beberg; FoRK; sramjee@hss.hns.com;
RRivers297@aol.com; billreed@ticnet.com
Subject: Re: National Sign-On Letter to House on H-1Bs, U.S. Immigration
Joe,
I don't see how you can claim we are anti immigration when we are here
to
focus on a High Tech and Engineering Manpower Supply/Demand issue.
It is very easy to get into a name calling environment, but it will
only
create problems and not solve them. Perhaps you enjoy being a problem maker
instead of a problem solver. Your tactics are those of a true lowlife.
Shame on
you!
All of your arguments and accusations apply so well when asked of those
you
are defending.
Richard
Joachim Feise wrote:
> Of course, Mr. Matloff Cc'ed his original answer to everyone on his
> list of anti-immigration advocates.
> Who are the "thousands of high tech workers" who share the same anecdote?
> Again and again I see you and your collegues arguing with some numbers
that
> nobody seems to know except you. Apparently, these numbers circulate in
> anti-immigration circles, and at some point become "facts".
> And then you throw in another anecdote about recruiting at UCD, which
> again does not show anything.
> Just a consideration: maybe recruiting at UCD is down because the people
> already have jobs.
> It is known that all US universities have problems getting graduate
students
> because of the worker shortage. People are leaving undergraduate curricula
> even before graduation.
> And why is the fact that a CEO said that they screen people something
> newsworthy? This happens all the time, in all industries. People apply for
> jobs they don't have the qualifications for, and they are screened out
> during the process. This has happened for centuries. Maybe you need
> an education in business management.
>
> -Joe
>
> Mark Mendlovitz wrote:
> >
> > When thousands of high tech workers are sharing the same "anecdote", the
> > anecdotal evidence of discrimination becomes hard evidence. Consider
this:
> > In the midst of an alleged "shortage" of workers, why is recruiting of
CS
> > students (for programming jobs) at UC-Davis down for the second year in
a
> > row? And Cisco's CEO just admitted recently that they interview only a
small
> > percentage of job candidates. Why? On the other hand, there is nothing
to
> > suggest a worker shortage except the anecdotes from a relatively small
> > number of industry lobbyists seeking to prevent a rise in wages, all in
the
> > commercial high tech sector. The burden of proof should be on EMPLOYERS,
not
> > employees, since employers are free to send work outside the U.S., while
> > most American are not able to get work overseas. What proof do you have
Joe?
> >
> > ------Original Message------
> > From: "Eric D. Sherman" <EricSherman@Alum.MIT.edu>
> > To: jfeise@ics.uci.edu, Norm Matloff <matloff@cs.ucdavis.edu>
> > Sent: June 8, 2000 6:55:35 PM GMT
> > Subject: RE: National Sign-On Letter to House on H-1Bs, U.S. Immigration
> >
> > I have over 25 years' perience in the IT field, both in the U.S. and
abroad.
> > In my personal experience, every word Norman Matloff has ever written
has
> > been deadly accurate.
> >
> > Moreover, Norm's positions have the overwhelming support of over 80% of
the
> > American population. Even legislators have admitted that the reasons
they're
> > taking their anti-American positions on H1B/immigration are because
industry
> > is PAYING them to do so.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joachim Feise [mailto:jfeise@ics.uci.edu]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2000 2:46 PM
> > To: Norm Matloff
> > Cc: Adam L. Beberg; FoRK; sramjee@hss.hns.com; RRivers297@aol.com;
> > billreed@ticnet.com; jdensler@ziplink.net; c0030180@airmail.net;
> > rogermadden@cs.com; miano@colosseumbuilders.com;
> > netmouser@earthlink.net; 110077.3677@compuserve.com; terryo@flash.net;
> > robertsb@mindspring.com; infosurf@cybernex.net;
> > EricSherman@alum.mit.edu; KFran95011@aol.com; mendlovitz@prodigy.net;
> > RobSanz@worldnet.att.net; rtax@bellatlantic.net;
> > DamonScott@cs.ucdavis.edu
> > Subject: Re: National Sign-On Letter to House on H-1Bs, U.S. Immigration
> >
> > Norm Matloff wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 08, 2000 at 08:13:07AM -0700, Joachim Feise wrote:
> > >
> > > > > On Thu, 8 Jun 2000 sramjee@hss.hns.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html
> > >
> > > > > I remember reading this a couple years ago just after it was
> > presented.
> > > > > Unfortunately ever word of what he says is true.
> > >
> > > > Well, it is not.
> > > > Of course, the anecdotal things he quotes from newspapers may be
true,
> > > > but given the way newspaper editors work, these things are likely to
be
> > > > blown out of proportions and sensationalized.
> > > > Age discrimination sure exists in some instances, but Norm Matloff
makes
> > > > it sound as if this is the rule, without giving sound (and provable)
> > evidence.
> > > > This is a bad approach, one that lobbying organizations take.
> > > > Because of this, everything he says in that paper is suspect.
> > >
> > > Hey, Joe, why don't you actually try READING my paper. There's
> > > a lot more than just anecdotes, with lots of cited data, graphs,
> > > tables etc.
> > >
> > > Norm
> >
> > You may remember that we had the same discussion before.
> > And repeating the assertion that I didn't read it doesn't make
> > the paper any better.
> > In fact, I have read parts of it, but couldn't stand reading the
> > whole thing because my blood started to boil reading unsubstantiated
> > claims.
> > It still is a biased lobbying paper, and therefore not really worth
> > serious consideration.
> >
> > -Joe
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Thu Jun 08 2000 - 14:34:35 PDT