My daughter doesn't watch tv much. I don't claim she's normal, but who
the hell is? (: We didn't have a TV for about 10 years till my mother
moved in with us, and it hasn't been a welcome thing since it got here.
Sometimes we watch a movie or a sitcom, but mostly it's either off or
annoying the hell out of Xi and I. And yup, she's gone to public school
her whole life. We simply prefer music.
C
On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, James Hong wrote:
> Agreed...
>
> what kind of teenager claims they barely watch tv? Odds are that it's a
> teenager that:
>
> 1) isn't normal
> 2) is lying through his/her teeth, and is just trying to make everyone think
> s/he's better than everyone else.
>
> Maybe there's a correlation between #2 and people who go to schools called
> the Milton Academy..
>
> j
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt Jensen" <mattj@newsblip.com>
> To: "Adam Rifkin" <Adam@knownow.com>
> Cc: <FoRK@XeNT.CoM>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 10:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [PBS] What Teens Want
>
>
> > (First, I claim the ancient right of "old bits" for the documentary
> > itself... http://www.xent.com/feb01/0247.html )
> >
> > Second, please note that all of the kids in the discussion are from Milton
> > Academy(!) It's not just an "independent" school, it's a 200-year-old
> > private school focused on classic academics. (How many other high schools
> > offer Greek?) This may explain why they sat for a discussion with PBS's
> > web site, and why they sounded articulate for their age.
> >
> > I expect PBS chose them because WGBH (which produced the Frontline
> > documentary) in Brighton is a short drive to Milton, and the kids could be
> > expected to be well-behaved and thoughtful.
> >
> > Now, if PBS.org had hosted a second discussion, with kids who go to
> > public schools and belong to the 75% of kids with a TV in their rooms, it
> > might have been very informative to compare the discussions side by side.
> > (Several of the Milton kids say they were raised without a TV.)
> >
> > -Matt Jensen
> > NewsBlip.com
> > Seattle
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Adam Rifkin wrote:
> >
> > > There's a totally compelling PBS report circulating this month
> > > on the feedback cycle of how the media companies give teenagers
> > > what they want (mooks -n- midrifs), which in turn makes the
> > > teenagers more like the images of what they want, which makes
> > > the media companies provide even more of it...
> > >
> > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/
> > >
> > > MTV dramatically closed the feedback loop between culture and
> > > marketing and made it much harder to tell one from the other,
> > > or which came first:
> > >
> > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/themes/symbiotic.html
> > >
> > > If you take that as the kind of ground zero for the MTV experience
> > > and widen it out, it gets more consistent the further you go. And
> > > then if you look at the world we live in today and talk about how
> > > people seem to use advertisements--for example, the Budweiser
> > > advertisement, the "What'sup" thing. Now you hear a lot of people
> > > saying "What'sup" to each other, which they're not saying because
> > > they're trying to market anything. They're saying "What's up," but
> > > they're referencing that Budweiser commercial because that's
> > > something that they have in common and that's their little shared
> > > piece of culture in that community moment. So you can't really
> > > draw the line clearly the way you used to be able to draw the line
> clearly.
> > >
> > > We are down to just six media giants who control practically
> > > everything we see, hear, and are marketed with: Viacom, Newscorp,
> > > Bertlesmann, Disney, Vivendi Universal, and (ahem, the biggest)
> > > AOL Time Warner:
> > >
> > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/giants/
> > >
> > > The thing is, you can be a savvy teen and realize the Rage Against
> > > The Machine is *part* of the machine, that Eminem is not shocking
> > > because he's real but because he's an excellent simulation of what
> > > would be horrifying if it were actually real, and so on...
> > >
> > > You think Eminem gives a damn about a Grammy? Heck yes...
> > >
> > >
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/etc/dontfwithshady.html
> > >
> > > Imagine what will happen when these teens start entering the workforce
> > > in droves...
> > >
> > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/teens/
> > >
> > > Teenagers are not generally viewers of FRONTLINE reports. And that's why
> we
> > > wanted to make an effort to get their views about this one, "The
> Merchants
> > > of Cool." Because it's about them--how they're the target "demo" for the
> > > media marketers of popular culture today. So here are the reactions of
> just
> > > one small group of teens after watching this FRONTLINE documentary.
> There
> > > were about a dozen who viewed it, all high school juniors and seniors at
> > > Milton Academy, an independent school in the Boston area. We hope their
> > > views might elicit more comments from their peers about this FRONTLINE
> > > report, which we will post in our "Join the Discussion" area of this
> site.
> > >
> > > So what did you think?"
> > > Tor: I got interested in it. I just got kind of annoyed at the fact that
> it
> > > was showing so much of what it was talking about. It felt like I was
> > > watching commercials.
> > >
> > > Willis: . . . There weren't enough kids in it. We heard all these media
> > > executives and whatever, but there was only a real response from the
> > > teenagers at the beginning. . . .
> > >
> > > Laura: I really do feel I was being studied. Like some kind of specimen.
> And
> > > that I didn't have any voice as a teenager. That was kind of weird.
> > >
> > > Was what the media executives were saying about teenagers true to your
> > > experience?
> > >
> > > Laura: I think it was accurate, but it wasn't me telling them. [The
> problems
> > > was] it was them telling me.
> > >
> > > Brian: They were talking about the rebelliousness--but it's not
> rebelling at
> > > all. And they're talking about how teachers are nerds and authority
> figures
> > > are laughable. I mean, they're basically saying, "Everybody sucks except
> for
> > > us."
> > >
> > > Adia: Is pop culture trying to help people?
> > >
> > > Laura: No. It's trying to make money. That's the problem, we're a
> > > money-making culture.
> > >
> > > Tor: It at least pretends that it's trying to help people. Like it
> offers a
> > > solution if you just dumb yourself down enough to accept it. . . .
> > >
> > > Willis: Another related topic is that now that things like Napster and
> > > Gnutella and these computer programs...that's kind of the new wave of
> > > rebellion. Just to completely rip off electronic media--download your
> own
> > > songs for free. Let's see if these media giants are going to be able to
> > > out-run it in the next decade or two.
> > >
> > > Adia: I completely agree. The Internet is too big to control. . . .
> > >
> > > Willis: I think what the Internet has done. . . . You see a lot of
> smaller
> > > [artists and labels] supporting programs like Napster because they can
> > > really get their stuff out. And I can do whatever I want to, as long as
> the
> > > [artists] are willing to put it out there. And the small artists are
> doing
> > > that.
> > >
> > > Tor: With things like Napster, you can't tell people, "This is what you
> > > should be listening to." You can't push it. And because you can't push
> it
> > > the bands stay true to what they were writing about originally. If you
> > > listen to what people say about a lot of bands that have become big--a
> lot
> > > say, "You should listen to their old stuff--It's a lot better, before
> they
> > > got influenced."
> > >
> > > Davis: Eminem was a different artist before he became mainstream.
> > >
> > > What do you think of the Eminem-Grammy controversy?
> > >
> > > Davis: I didn't even watch it. I think the whole Eminem thing is BS. It
> > > really is like the [Insane Clown Posse]: "I'm rebelling, I'm taking it
> to
> > > the next level," just like media has been doing. They started out with
> the
> > > sex years ago and it just keeps escalating. Like the [FRONTLINE program]
> > > said, the media's looking at the teenage generation, taking that image,
> and
> > > I think they're notching it up a step. They're making it that much more
> > > risqué, and then they're selling it back. And you have Eminem with these
> > > absurd lyrics, and it's impossible to believe that any of that is really
> > > true.
> > >
> > > You don't think Eminem's lyrics are actually coming from him?
> > >
> > > Davis: I doubt it. I think that's an example of someone who's trying to
> > > market the next level. No one else is doing that, so he's ahead of the
> game.
> > >
> > > Dan: One of the [media] executives was talking about how they are trying
> to
> > > take things to the next level. The person who made "Cruel Intentions"
> wants
> > > to do something that nobody else has done. And in that sense, that is
> sort
> > > of the way to go. People want to see new things. But to do that, it's
> just
> > > going to escalate. Sexual activity on TV is just getting more explicit.
> > > Vocabulary that's allowed on the radio is getting more and more
> explicit.
> > >
> > > But do you feel you're getting fed more explicit stuff by the media? Or
> do
> > > you feel that you, as a generation, are asking for the more explicit
> > > material?
> > >
> > > Adia: It's both. . . . And society as a whole, because of this downward
> > > spiral in teenagers, is kind of going downward. Let's take sex and
> violence,
> > > which is what you see everywhere. I am inevitably polluted with it all
> the
> > > time. But once I turn 18, I'm not just going to forget about it. It's
> still
> > > going to be there. And I'm going to take that pollution (that's what
> I'll
> > > call it for now) and I'm just going to take that with me for the rest of
> my
> > > life. And that's just going to affect everything from then on. I think
> it's
> > > a downward spiral not just for the teenagers and the media, but for US
> > > culture. . . .
> > >
> > > Brian: I think one of the main problems is that with all of this
> constant
> > > influx of information and also collapse of morals, it ends up creating
> an
> > > apathy. I don't think people are as happy as they would be if they were
> able
> > > to do things of their own--as opposed to being told what to do and
> having,
> > > in a lot of ways, no minds of their own because they have no way of
> > > expressing themselves. Everything is forced into them.
> > >
> > > Willis: Tuning it out is a way of expressing yourself. I've pretty much
> > > stopped watching MTV. I live in the dorm. Sometimes it's going to be
> > > playing. Then I don't really have a choice. But mainly I watch what I'm
> > > interested in which is basketball. . . . .
> > >
> > > Dan: I don't really understand how advertising can make that much effect
> on
> > > the population. When I'm listening to the radio, I'll listen to a song I
> > > like and as soon as that song goes off and an ad comes on, I change the
> > > channel, trying to find something else. . . . [Ads] don't make me buy
> > > something. It seems like it's more just about name recognition. And we
> > > talked about this in our film class. It doesn't sell me a product, but
> it
> > > sells me the name. And whether I go out and buy that, at least I feel
> like
> > > it's my own choice still.
> > >
> > > Do you ever think that maybe it's not your choice? That you're just
> being
> > > programmed in some way?
> > >
> > > Dan: I honestly don't. One example is, I wear Nike shoes. Yes, it is a
> big
> > > huge name brand and there's tons of advertising on it. And I've gone out
> and
> > > I've worn Reeboks or whatever. And honestly, the one pair of Reeboks I
> ever
> > > had fell apart in a month. So to me, I found something that I like,
> that's
> > > comfortable, and that stays in one piece, and so that's why I buy Nike.
> > >
> > > Why don't you buy some no-name?
> > >
> > > Sara: You can't even get a no-name brand.
> > >
> > > Adia: . . . That's kind of what was so depressing about the documentary.
> It
> > > really is like a spiral. And it seems as though right now we're way too
> far
> > > into it to get out of it. Nike has way more money than beginning shoe
> > > companies could have. For example, Converse. I love Converse. . . . But
> then
> > > it sold out. It sold out to the same company that has New Balance and
> > > Skechers. The film mentioned the five conglomerates. They're so big,
> they're
> > > so huge, that you really stand no chance going against them. . . .
> > >
> > > Davis: I have a question--for anyone--which is: I do disagree with the
> AOL
> > > Time-Warner--the big five. But is it wrong for Time Warner, or is it
> wrong
> > > for Viacom to own MTV and to own all of this--is it wrong to buy smaller
> > > companies out in a capitalistic society?
> > >
> > > Adia: No, but it's disgusting. [laughter]
> > >
> > > Brian: I think it is wrong. I think that it depends on what their motive
> is.
> > > And their motive is not to help anyone. It's to make money for
> themselves.
> > > And they talk about, "We give money to charity." They want you to know
> they
> > > give money to charity. It's all about making money for themselves.
> > >
> > > Jonathan: What's wrong with that?
> > >
> > > Willis: Well, for better or for worse, that's capitalism. And that's the
> > > system we have. If we want to switch to socialism, then let's become
> > > politically active and do that. . . .
> > >
> > > Laura: There was one comment in the documentary that it's a really
> limited
> > > pool, like our political system--only a certain number of people could
> run
> > > for president because they're rich white males. And I think that we
> can't
> > > ever say that we're buying what we want, when the choices are so
> limited.
> > >
> > > Dan: I agree with you that our selection is really limited. But at the
> same
> > > time, I think that if I found that I hated Nikes, I would switch to
> another
> > > brand. And I think that if you want to, you can search and you can find
> > > variety. . . .
> > >
> > > Laura: What worries me is that in the future there will be no companies
> out
> > > there who have earned that position of prominence. Like they showed that
> > > band that they just promoted and promoted and they wouldn't necessarily
> have
> > > become famous if they hadn't been promoted. And if all the companies are
> > > like that, then there could be a time when none of them are good and it
> will
> > > be impossible to find something else. That's what worries me.
> > >
> > > Adia: And when you look at the progression of that, that means that when
> we
> > > grow up and want to start a company--let's say I want to start a band,
> or
> > > let's say you want to make shoes when you get older--that means that
> you're
> > > going to be eaten up by a conglomerate, basically. And you're going to
> have
> > > to be a part of that culture. Because that's really what it's leading.
> > >
> > > Brian: . . . . I don't know what the answer is. One of my teachers
> said--and
> > > I hope that in some way she's right--she believes this is a regular
> cycle.
> > > It's a moral collapse that happens. And it happens in societies every
> once
> > > in a while. And eventually it will burn out. People will get tired of
> having
> > > no morals. Tired of being told what to do, and things will change.
> > >
> > > Tor: I think already it's becoming more and more popular for parents to
> > > raise their kids without TV. I personally was raised in a house without
> TV.
> > > I read all the time.
> > >
> > > Laura: Me, too.
> > >
> > > Tor: I still have approximately no connection with the media. I don't
> have
> > > time for TV, don't have time for the radio, really. I don't have time
> for
> > > the newspaper. I have time to notice things like as I'm walking around.
> I
> > > think, people are realizing that things like TV (just as an example) are
> > > becoming faulty, and that people are rebelling against that just by
> blocking
> > > it out.
> > >
> > > Adia: I don't think people are realizing that. One of the first
> statistics
> > > that they said [in the documentary] is that 75% of American teens have a
> TV
> > > in their room. And boy that's kind of scary. I mean, if 75% have that,
> then
> > > clearly we're totally in the minority. . . .
> > >
> > > Dan: I know that I come from a fairly wealthy, well-off family. And the
> idea
> > > of having a TV in my room, to my parents and to me, is kind of
> ridiculous. .
> > > . . I don't know many of my friends who have a TV in their room. And
> that
> > > number seems really, really high to me.
> > >
> > > Adia: . . . . We may not watch it, but I'm convinced we're the minority.
> > > Because everyone else does.
> > >
> > > Davis: I think all this talk of how we're the minority has brought the
> idea
> > > in my head that it's interesting, as we're sitting here seeing this
> > > FRONTLINE thing, we obviously share a lot of these ideas about how we
> hate
> > > the big five and all this marketing. I think it would be interesting to
> hear
> > > what your "Abercrombie kids" or your "American Eagle kids" would think
> about
> > > all this after they saw it, and they saw that a lot of what they do is
> > > marketed and planned. And also I wonder why none of those kids are here.
> > >
> > > Sara: I'm wearing an American Eagle shirt and Skechers, and I am a media
> > > addict. I watch probably way more TV than all of you guys put together.
> I
> > > read Entertainment Weekly . [laughter] I am not the Abercrombie
> > > representative here, but I don't feel like the problem is that there's a
> > > breakdown of morals, or that the culture is evil, or that there's some
> kind
> > > of encroachment. I feel the problem is that we're not represented in our
> > > culture. We don't create it and it's not born of anything of us. It's
> born
> > > of what they're trying to give to us, which is really what worries me. .
> . .
> > >
> > > Jonathan: In reference to creating, I think the FRONTLINE documentary
> > > pointed out that it is created at the level of the independent,
> > > forward-minded kids. But where it goes astray is when media companies
> pick
> > > it up and they try to market it. That's when it turns into something big
> and
> > > something possibly even evil. And perhaps I think the Internet is one
> outlet
> > > of independent-minded people. I mean, it's an opportunity for anybody to
> be
> > > as big as one of those big five.
> > >
> > > What about the gender images and the stereotypes being marketed? Any
> > > thoughts on the boy "mook" idea or the girl sexpot idea as sketched in
> the
> > > FRONTLINE film? Did that ring true to you?
> > >
> > > Davis: I think that the mook stuff and all that does ring true. I could
> name
> > > a few kids in my class that are mooks, or are whatever the other term
> was.
> > > It does ring true. . . .There are kids who respond to [that sort of
> thing],
> > > who are really "in your face" and who are assholes. Some kids respond to
> > > that activity. And obviously MTV's caught onto it, and it's too bad.
> > > Personally I think the people like Tom Green and shows like Jackass are
> > > responsible for some of the moral decline we're seeing, because they're
> > > putting it on MTV, one of the most popular TV stations, and it's kind of
> a
> > > cliché but they're giving people these idols or role models.
> > >
> > > Tor: One thing that gets to me about Tom Green is that he is talented;
> he's
> > > just talented at being a tool. [laughter] It really gets to me. If he
> wasn't
> > > on TV, would he be doing the exact same things? What would he be doing
> if he
> > > wasn't on TV? Doesn't that scare you?
> > >
> > > Willis: He would be arrested a lot more often because he wouldn't be in
> the
> > > protection of MTV on an MTV spring break cruise.
> > >
> > > Tor: The media has been telling us that money will make us happy.
> Everyone's
> > > trying to get to be happy, and the media is telling us, "If you just
> have
> > > enough money, you can buy it." And so people who buy into that are
> looking
> > > for money, to the exclusion of just about anything else--which is where
> Tom
> > > Green comes in. Tom Green is a great way for them to get little boys to
> > > watch that show, to watch their advertising, for them to influence the
> minds
> > > of little boys, then to make more money off the kids. . . .
> > >
> > > Willis: I want to say on another note, we keep speaking about "us" and
> > > "them" and "we" and "they." And you know, we're becoming the trend
> setters
> > > here. You realize that our little debate here is being recorded and it's
> > > going to go on a website. And that website will be advertised on TV to a
> > > national audience. And we in turn will be posting the ideas that our
> peers
> > > and those younger than us can feed off of. [laughter] Isn't it strange
> how
> > > we've been rebelling against it, and we [are still part of it?]
> > >
> > >
> > > ----
> > > Adam@KnowNow.Com
> > >
> > > We don't call it Detroit, we call it Amityville;
> > > You can get capped after just havin a cavity filled.
> > > Ahahahaha, that's why we're crowned the murder capital still;
> > > This ain't Detroit, this is motherFoRKin Hamburger Hill!
> > > We don't do drivebys, we park in front of houses and shoot,
> > > and when the police come we FoRKin shoot it out with them too!
> > > That's the mentality here, that's the reality here...
> > > -- Eminem, "Amityville"
> > >
>
-- "Think wrongly, if you please, but in all cases, think for yourself." --Doris Lessing, British writer
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Fri Apr 27 2001 - 23:13:13 PDT