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From jamesr@best.com 02 Jul 2002 11:46:26 -0700 Date: 02 Jul 2002 11:46:26 -0700 From: James Rogers jamesr@best.com Subject: Costs per GB? (was Re: Did apathy kill the Internet Radio Star? On Tue, 2002-07-02 at 04:31, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jul 2002, Adam L. Beberg wrote: > > > I dont think the 2$/GB for the ISP, $5-10/GB to make it work and support it > > has changed much. > > Does this mean that broadband flatrates are currently being sold below > cost, if modestly heavily utilized? The pricing is complicated, as it is dependent on the network and systems architecture. The fundamental network cost per gigabit for the various network types vary by about an order of magnitude, with telcos being the worst and long-haul gigabit ethernet being the cheapest (and ironically much faster too). The $2/GB transit figure above is the approximate cost using telco networks. The $5-10/GB operational cost is simply wrong (though I suppose it could be accurate in a telco centric operation). The average DSL connection uses a couple dollars worth of bandwidth on an efficient next-gen gigabit fiber network. The typical DSL pricing (even for the telco) is such that even if you maxed out your connection 24/7, the transit costs for the bandwidth used would not cost more than your monthly flat fee. Due to a huge number of factors, the cost for the telco is substantially higher, but that doesn't reflect the real cost for bandwidth that doesn't use the telco networks. Broadband is not a particularly profitable business for telcos, but it is a profitable business for smartly run gigabit fiber companies, particularly if they don't need to run segments over telco networks. Obviously, network costs are only part of the total cost. Power consumption is probably the second highest cost, followed by support and operations overhead. These all have to be factored into the price the customer sees, and can vary and distribute very differently from company to company. >From an efficiency standpoint, telco-DSL networks are very wrong and very expensive. DSL is useful, but only for very short links (e.g. distribution in multi-tenant building from a high-speed POP when you don't want to run twisted pair or wireless) particularly now that DSL networking gear is cheap. "Long-haul" DSL is madness, and the ping times and operations costs are never going to be anything but crappy on telco networks. (Speaking, unofficially, as someone in the next-gen gigabit fiber business.) -James Rogers jamesr@best.com From fork_list@hotmail.com Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:00:26 -0700 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:00:26 -0700 From: Mr. FoRK fork_list@hotmail.com Subject: Thought this might be interesting to the protocol folks Thought this might be interesting to the protocl folks --- Get yer REST gear here... http://www.cafepress.com/rest From lgonze@panix.com Tue, 2 Jul 2002 15:38:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 15:38:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Lucas Gonze lgonze@panix.com Subject: Costs per GB? (was Re: Did apathy kill the Internet Radio Star? > Broadband is not > a particularly profitable business for telcos, but it is a profitable > business for smartly run gigabit fiber companies, particularly if they > don't need to run segments over telco networks. Can you explain this, James? I have always wanted to know what the telcos problem is with DSL and ISDN. From Kenneth.Meltsner@ca.com Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:20:52 -0400 Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:20:52 -0400 From: Meltsner, Kenneth Kenneth.Meltsner@ca.com Subject: CoKinetic -- Curl in XML? This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2220E.5857C20C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've been playing with CoKinetic, a thick client ("player") for Web-based applications. It uses "I3ML" to mark up its content, which in turn builds lots of slick UI gadgets and such. Windows-centric. Heavy financial services focus. So far, it doesn't look any more brilliant than Curl, although it feels faster and slicker. Any thoughts? Perhaps I'll try to get XWT up and running locally. Ken http://www.cokinetic.com http://www.xwt.org ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2220E.5857C20C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CoKinetic -- Curl in XML?

I've been playing with CoKinetic, a thick client = ("player") for Web-based applications. It uses = "I3ML" to mark up its content, which in turn builds lots of = slick UI gadgets and such. Windows-centric. Heavy financial = services focus.

So far, it doesn't look any more brilliant than Curl, = although it feels faster and slicker.

Any thoughts? Perhaps I'll try to get XWT up = and running locally.

Ken

http://www.cokinetic.com

http://www.xwt.org

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2220E.5857C20C-- From jamesr@best.com 02 Jul 2002 14:53:04 -0700 Date: 02 Jul 2002 14:53:04 -0700 From: James Rogers jamesr@best.com Subject: Costs per GB? (was Re: Did apathy kill the Internet Radio Star? On Tue, 2002-07-02 at 12:38, Lucas Gonze wrote: > > Broadband is not > > a particularly profitable business for telcos, but it is a profitable > > business for smartly run gigabit fiber companies, particularly if they > > don't need to run segments over telco networks. > > Can you explain this, James? I have always wanted to know what the telcos > problem is with DSL and ISDN. The core underlying problem to all this is that the telcos want (and to a certain extent, need) to milk as much money as they can out of their voice infrastructure. The whole situation is ghastly mess of politics, regulation, and bad business. A major part of what we have now is the unintended market consequences of byzantine regulation and government manipulation. The whole story is really long, but I can make a few points. First, DSL and ISDN are hacks specifically designed under the assumption of transit over voice networks. The very premise is gross, so the solutions built on top of the premise suck as well. You can't do cheap and fast data networking on voice networks. For various regulatory and legal reasons, the telcos have no interested in running pure data networks, and data isn't particularly profitable for them so they don't encourage it. In a sense the telcos are literally forced to stand still while technology chugs along. Furthermore, the cost of deploying data networks parallel to that of the telcos of a similar size and scope is prohibitive, and not protected and subsidized by a monopoly. Because companies are therefore largely required to use telcos for backhauls, the telcos become the bottleneck, and if they are so inclined, can also get into any data networking business you are doing with their networks. This is not conducive to healthy competition. The 1996 Telecommunications Act was supposed to scramble things up a bit, but had a lot of unintended consquences (one of the people responsible for that Act works for my networking company, and apologizes profusely) and ultimately didn't improve data communications very much and created strange economic perversions in that market. The Internet boom and its collapse was actually the catalyst for the current shift in the market place toward cheap gigE fiber backhauls. Even though you can buy fiber from the telcos, they guard it jealously and place a myriad of ridiculous restrictions on what you can do with it. They don't want you to do anything remotely competitive with their assets and don't have a good business reason to. During the high flying days of the Internet boom, many non-telco companies spent countless billions of dollars deploying an obscene amount of fiber around the country. The expense of deploying the fiber and non-competitiveness of essentially duplicating the telco networks was such that it bankrupted most of the companies that did it in the aftermath of the Internet boom. So now we have the situation where there is metric buttloads of dark fiber (and lit rings for that matter) in the ground, often multiple companies connecting the same two points, that is currently not utilized or the companies that are operating them are in bankruptcy. It is possible for a company to piece together their own telco-sized fiber networks by purchasing the orphaned fiber assets for a song. But rather than repeating the very expensive mistake of using telco-optimized protocols and terminating hardware, you can run long-haul gigabit Ethernet over the same fiber, which uses much cheaper off-the-shelf routers and switches capable of running at wire speed, and get better network performance to boot due to the fact that you aren't running on top of voice protocols. So to go back to the original thought, the reason gigabit fiber providers can run circles around the telcos are very cheap infrastructure costs (it takes very little time to amortize the acquisition and lighting of a fiber ring), very efficient and cheap networking protocols (Ethernet throughout), and most importantly the ability to bypass the telco infrastructure. The last part is really the most important; as long as the telcos are in the loop and you require their resources, they don't really allow you to compete against them as a business. As I stated before, broadband doesn't need to be expensive, it is only expensive because the telcos force other companies to make it expensive. With the advent of extensive and cheap gigabit fiber networks, the telcos will be faced with the first real competition in the data communications market that they've ever seen, and the early signs are that the telcos are going to get hammered. This isn't really my business of expertise per se, but my involvement and investment in it has made me very aware of the fact that the reality is more twisted and perverse than anything I had imagined. There are some really nice new wireless technologies coming out too, but the telcos are trying very hard to get them regulated into oblivion (my FCC contacts say that the death warrant has already been signed internally, just not issued yet), as that would effectively obsolete the telco's "last mile" stranglehold. Cheers, -James Rogers jamesr@best.com From gbolcer@endeavors.com Tue, 02 Jul 2002 17:31:36 -0700 Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 17:31:36 -0700 From: Gregory Alan Bolcer gbolcer@endeavors.com Subject: IP: Open source in government (fwd) The ADTI paper is interesting. The first thing you want to do is throw up your hands and say, if's it's good enough to support trillions of dollars of livelihood and commerce in the commercial sector then it's more than good enough for most of the government unless they don't want the cost savings, increased control, larger beta testing and security sampling of code and quicker time to security fixes and upgrades than available from most non-open source products. Everyone's head the Bill Gates comment describing open source as communism either in Cringely's Pulpit or C. Mann's Atlantic Monthly article. Everyone knows the 10 myths of open source. OSSI currently lists that: 30% of Internet servers run Linux 60% of Web servers run Apache 80% of email servers run Sendmail 90% of DNS servers run BIND Are we really having this discussion in 1993, I mean 2003? What is driving this debate (and don't say "a distraction to the pledge of allegiance debate" or OSCON). Greg [1] http://www.cpi.seas.gwu.edu//oss/cpi_rebuttal.pdf Eugen Leitl wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:07:23 -0400 > From: David Farber > Reply-To: farber@cis.upenn.edu > To: ip-sub-1@majordomo.pobox.com > Subject: IP: Open source in government > > Copy me please. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Tim O'Reilly" > Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 09:00:12 > To: Dave Farber > Subject: Open source in government > > Dave, > > I've recently had two speakers for the upcoming Open Source Convention > (http://conferences.oreilly.com/os2002) who were planning to talk about the > use of open source in government suddenly cancel on me, saying that they > were in trouble with their bosses. > > I've written an article about this (actually, it's the second page of a > longer article about how open source shifts power from software vendors to > users), that some of your readers might find interesting. It's at at > http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2002/06/28/vendor.html . > > But I'm also looking for more information about what's going on right now > with open source in government. There's clearly a lot of support, but > increasing signs of pushback. I'm wondering if this is the result of some > of the recent Microsoft lobbying and FUD (see the article for details), or > if something else is going on. > > I'd love it if your readers could shed any light. I also do think that > there's a good opportunity here for some investigative journalists to check > in to some of the lobbying that's going on. > > -- Gregory Alan Bolcer, CTO | work: +1.949.833.2800 | gbolcer at endeavors.com Endeavors Technology, Inc. | cell: +1.714.928.5476 | http://endeavors.com From operates@golholt.com Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:11:48 -1600 Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 04:11:48 -1600 From: operates@golholt.com operates@golholt.com Subject: Plenty Of Growth Ahead...ISOWG Learn how you can receive a monthly check for 4 to 5 percent a month Until your initial investment is paid off.... 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