From: Dave Winer (dave@userland.com)
Date: Sun Sep 17 2000 - 13:47:04 PDT
The key point is that for a complex product there has to be someone in
charge. I think we're in agreement on that. Could you imagine a movie
without a director? Same with software, at least I've never seen a
counter-example. And generosity of users is not new to the "movement"
either, it just wasn't fashionable to look at it. Imho, of course. Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl Anderson" <kra@monkey.org>
To: "Dave Winer" <dave@userland.com>
Cc: "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net>; "Kragen Sitaker"
<kragen@pobox.com>; <pdyson@sbexpos.com>; <mtalbot@netcom.com>;
<Eskenazi@aol.com>; <fork@kragen.dnaco.net>; <harry@saal.org>;
<markoff@nyt.com>; <dirk@airports.co.za>; <lindas@microsoft.com>;
<pwiser@liquidaudio.com>; <einstein@sfgate.com>; <ir@ianrhett.com>;
<dave@scripting.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: Are you an open source developer?
> "Dave Winer" <dave@userland.com> writes:
>
> [opensource means users are members who help with creation - at least,
> I think this is what you're asking about]
>
> > Is that theory or have you had any personal experience of that working?
From
> > what I've seen small utilities can be evolved that way. Otherwise it
appears
> > to be a myth of open source. An often-repeated one of course. Open
source
> > makes everything great. Where's the evidence? Dave
>
> There are a few large (and successful) opensource projects with many
> active contributors. Emacs! And the subprojects of emacs - I think
> gnus is the best mail/newsreader out there (er, for geeks who can
> battle the configuration and docs), and that's an obvious case of a
> large community of developers seeing a need and working together to
> put the parts in place.
>
> Zope being another, I think. Digital Creations spends lots of time on
> the core, and interested outside people or groups add components;
> those components that the community wants get heavy use and testing,
> sometimes attracting developers, sometimes remaining the work of a
> small group. The development of the core is also influenced by where
> the community is taking Zope.
>
> The opensource hype is so overblown that when people see the obvious
> counterexamples, they want to disbelieve the whole thing, but it *can*
> work.
>
> If you're asking about the other question - does a project need a pro
> at the top - I think yes, a project needs an owner (individual or
> closeknit group), but I do believe that the gift economy or reputation
> economy works here - it's worthwhile to put in opensource creative
> time, so anyone who can afford that time has a good chance of the
> investment paying off. But I don't see that it's cut and dried
> between the cathedral and the bazaar.
>
> Not to say that opensource == worthwhile project that will gain
> developers working together in an effective way, of course. But it's
> not true that opensource == project that can't gain developers working
> together in an effective way.
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Stephen D. Williams" <sdw@lig.net>
> > To: "Kragen Sitaker" <kragen@pobox.com>
> > Cc: <pdyson@sbexpos.com>; <mtalbot@netcom.com>; <Eskenazi@aol.com>;
> > <fork@kragen.dnaco.net>; <harry@saal.org>; <markoff@nyt.com>;
> > <dirk@airports.co.za>; <lindas@microsoft.com>; <pwiser@liquidaudio.com>;
> > <einstein@sfgate.com>; <ir@ianrhett.com>; <dave@scripting.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 12:22 PM
> > Subject: Re: Are you an open source developer?
> >
> >
> > > Kragen Sitaker wrote:
> > >
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > > PS: I see this as exactly analogous to the debate in music between
> > > > > artists and the industry. The artists should define the industry,
not
> > > > > the other way around, of course, imho.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if I agree. I think the fans should define the whole
> > > > thing, not the artists or the record companies. That's what
> > > > open-source software is about: software distributed on terms
favorable
> > > > to the users, not just the creators. Terms that make the users
> > > > members, not just consumers.
> > >
> > > In particular, terms that allow and encourage 'members' to join in
further
> > > creation.
> > >
> > > This is the basic difference in philosophy: are there few
'professional'
> > > creators or is everyone potentially a creator at one level and for
desired
> > > topics. The later model is obviously more appealing to those not
> > currently
> > > receiving heavy
> > >
> > > > --
> > > > <kragen@pobox.com> Kragen Sitaker
> > <http://www.pobox.com/~kragen/>
> > > > Perilous to all of us are the devices of an art deeper than we
ourselves
> > > > possess.
> > > > -- Gandalf the Grey [J.R.R. Tolkien, "Lord of the
> > Rings"]
> > >
> > > sdw
> > >
> > > --
> > > Insta.com - Revolutionary E-Business Communication
> > > sdw@insta.com Stephen D. Williams Senior Consultant/Architect
> > http://sdw.st
> > > 43392 Wayside Cir,Ashburn,VA 20147-4622 703-724-0118W 703-995-0407Fax
> > Jan2000
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> --
> Karl Anderson kra@monkey.org http://www.monkey.org/~kra/
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